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“A true miracle!”

Law firm suggests divine intervention in Orange diocese's acquisition of Crystal Cathedral


By Marianne Medlin

Orange (CNA) -- The Diocese of Orange beat all odds in their winning bid for the Crystal Cathedral because their final offer was less than their competitor, says the Busch Firm of Irvine, which represented the diocese in court.

“A true miracle!” said founder Tim Busch in reaction to the news.

In a statement published on its website, the firm said it was shocked that the Crystal Cathedral Ministries board chose the diocese's $57.5 million offer for the bankrupt cathedral after Chapman University upped its bid to $59 million on Nov. 17.

Although bankruptcy Judge Robert N. Kwan allowed the board to choose from either offer, the majority of its members sided with the diocese since it would “protect the campus as a place of praise and worship and would provide a smoother transition,” the firm said.

The Crystal Cathedral purchase will close on Dec. 30, and is slated to meet the needs of the 1.2 million Catholics in Orange County -- the 10th largest diocese in the nation.

Bishop Tod D. Brown vowed on Nov. 17 that the diocese will “protect this wonderful structure as a place of worship and will soon provide our Catholic community with a new cathedral, pastoral center, parish school and more.”

The bishop also offered his sympathy to the cathedral’s founding pastor, Robert H. Schuller, who filed for bankruptcy last October after creditors sued for payment.

Purchasing the Crystal Cathedral was an attractive option since it provides an instant solution to the diocese’s building needs and will cost roughly half the $100 million needed to build a cathedral once planned for Santa Ana.

The liturgist for the Orange diocese, Monsignor Arthur Holquin, said on July 26 that several changes will need to take place in order for the Crystal Cathedral to become a Catholic worship space.

Along with a central altar, a tabernacle and a baptismal font, the building will need a “cathedra” or bishop’s chair. While renovations are needed to the building, “not much deconstruction would be required and the iconic personality of the original architecture and design would, for the most part, be retained,” he said.


READER COMMENTS

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 12:10 AM By Sawyer
How about renovating the exterior of the Crystal Cathedral with stained glass mosaics depicting biblical figures and events, saints, and the history and faith of the Church? The cathedral could become a sort of new Sainte Chappelle in the United States.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 4:58 AM By NC
This is truly a blessing and a fitting reality to this building which is so easily seen along the central Orange County skyline bringing to mind the presence of Christ in the community. The opportunity to gather all Christians to His Church has taken a great leap forward.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 5:18 AM By Loraine
How will this affect Father Michael McKiernan, Bishop Brown's former roommate of seven years and former personal secretary to Bishop Brown, and now pastor or Christ Our Savior Cathedral parish in Santa Ana? I believe he was in line to be pastor of the Cathedral, had the cathedral been built in Santa Ana. Will Father McKiernan be the pastor of the Crystal Cathedral, or will he remain at Christ Our Savior?

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 5:33 AM By Loraine
What about kneelers? Monsignor Arthur Holquin mentioned a central altar, a tabernacle and a baptismal font, but I didn't see any mention of kneelers.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 5:46 AM By St. Christopher
"Iconic personality of the original architecture"? This is an insane purchase, with the purported "miracle" being that someone in the Vatican failed to call O.C. and tell B. Brown to stop embarrassing the Church by his nutty actions. This actions is roughly similar to venerating the heretic Martin Luther. The architecture screams protestantism, and putting an altar and tabernacle there (oh yes, let's not forget the "cathedra") will not change this. What do they call it -- a "Catholic worship space"? Here we have it, a last gasp of the 1960's relativism crowd, calling their priest a "presider" and their church a "worship space" (how about a "Eucharistic hall," another Catholic Lib favorite) -- anything to get away from looking, sounding like, or being the one and only Church started by Christ, based on the dual foundations of (1) Tradition, and (2) Scripture. Nope, the Catholic Church started at Vatican II and all the old "medieval stuff" had to be destroyed. Bishop Troutman still continues to protest the new Missal translation, for example, and with the silliest examples. The purchase of the Crystal Cathedral is similar to this -- pro multis, to them, means "all" because that eliminate sin and Hell, just as the Crystal Cathedral eliminates the practices of true Catholicism.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 6:31 AM By David L.
To "St. Christopher": Christ, whom you acknowledge as the founder of the Church, never worshipped in a Catholic church building. The styles of architecture you find so attractive, came centuries (and in the case of gothic, a millennium) later. All we need is an upper room. For the first 3 centuries we were quite content with people's homes. I hope you are always able to find a church who's style you appreciate, but don't demand that everyone else has to liked what you like, especially in the arena of what is clearly non-essentials.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 6:55 AM By Father Carpenter
To St. Christopher: I suggest you read Josef Pieper's essay on the Sacred. In this small book he discusses what is a sacred place. He is one of the best Thomistic philosophers of the 20th century, and truly orthodox.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 7:23 AM By Veronica
It's a miracle if the diocese brings a wrecking ball and starts over; building a chapel true to traditional Church architecture.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 7:27 AM By markrite
C'mon, St. Christopher, get a grip!! This is a kind of traditionalist rant. When will you people start to realize that we're in the 21st century, and not all Catholics GET IT about the abuses of Vatican II, which. St. Christopher, you most obviously do? In fact I would say that you've been TRAUMATIZED by them. I believe there is a movement called "REFORM OF THE REFORM," which addresses the huge excesses of the post Vatican II lib crowd. But as always, GOD BLESS ALL, MARKRITE

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 7:38 AM By Kevin
As it has been often stated before: In Essentials, Unity; In Non-Essentials, Liberty; In All Things, Charity. I hope this can become the principle that will moderate the tone of this debate going forward. Thank you.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 7:45 AM By Tom Barbarie
In connection with an earlier article about this purchase there was a comment made that was critical of Thomas Aquinas College's Our Lady of the Most Holy Trinity Chapel. That just-completed structure was dismissed as "cookbook," which suggested something concocted from an old formula and therefore of little aesthetic worth. The critic used the term in defending the purchase of the Crystal Cathedral, which he deemed superior to the college's new church. I got a phone call or something and forgot to respond at the time, but the point needed to be made that there is nothing inherently wrong with cookbooks, that many a fine meal has been concocted with the aid of a cookbook. Furthermore, there are recipes and there are other recipes: the Crystal Cathedral is itself derived from a recipe favored during a particular period, the period in question being a deplorable, tasteless epoch. Add the Orange diocese's new purchase to the many wounds inflicted upon Catholic sensibilities in recent years. Like Luther, I would love to nail my complaints to the building's door, but I suspect that I might encounter some difficulty, what with all that glass.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 7:57 AM By JoeCee
Congratulations Diocese of Orange! Folks responsible for the stewardship of the Diocese of Oakland must be envious considering the price it is paying for its cathedral.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:26 AM By scott
Though the Crystal Cathedral wouldn't be something I'd want the diocese to build from scratch, this acquisition is a very good thing. A lot of people love that building and this move will help greatly in evangelization and in bringing fallen away and lukewarm Catholics home. So much of the time, the feeling or narrative is that of the Church receding or losing ground. This move is the Church gaining ground and taking territory (so to speak). Make no mistake--- that alone will win converts. Plus, it saves a lot of money and a lot of time. As the economy continues downward this building will be in place--- while plans, construction, funding etc for a new building might have been delayed for decades.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:32 AM By Catherine
Why is it that when someone gets what THEY want they automatically refer to it as a true miracle. One man's meat is surely another man's poison. One man's true miracle is another man's true nightmare.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:32 AM By Sarah
Right on, St. Christopher! Phrases such as worship space, faith community, and presider have no place in true Catholic vocabulary. I suppose the Crystal Cathedral will be furnished with comfortable arm chairs, not hard wooden pews and kneelers. Who needs to kneel during the Consecration?

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:50 AM By Abeca Christian
"1.2 million Catholics in Orange County -- the 10th largest diocese in the nation. " Are they also the 10th in poor Catholicism? I'm just wondering. I'm more concerned about their salvation than about the purchase of this building. Will this dioceses be fruitful in holier people. How about being rich in Tradition? Just wondering again. May this diocese build the church and it's lay faithful and bring back Tradition and more devout Catholics, true to Christ and His teachings. May the virtue "fear of the Lord" be upon them and us all!

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 9:24 AM By Juergensen
I'd like to know how many Catholic families, while Bishop Tod was dishing out the $57.5 million, had to send their children to public schools because they could not afford the diocese's Catholic schools? By my calculation, that $57.5 million, invested, could each year yield 575 $5,000 scholarships for Catholic families at Catholic schools. But, hey, what's the salvation of souls when we can buy a Protestant church?

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 10:34 AM By Linda
Schuller was the Prosperity Protest-ant and it is no surpise that in the end his empire collapsed. His son actually started preaching from the bible and Schuller couldn't stand that. As Protest-antism continues to splinter and support all sorts of heresy, Catholics may be able to pick up other church buildings around the country that are mostly empty!

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 10:48 AM By CD Thompson
I will start by saying that I am not Catholic. I am a Christian who believes in that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour. I grew up right down the street from the Crystal Cathedral and knew it as the Garden Grove Community Church. My parents never made us go to church but when I was 10 years old (1976) I rode my bicycle up the street and would sit in between the cars parked for the DRIVE IN worship and one day the Animated Pastor Dr. Schuller asked us to let Jesus clean our hearts of anything bad. I heard him and gave my life to Jesus right there on the spot. He then built this huge glass building and changed the name of the church to the Crystal Cathedral and I was appalled. The place went from our Garden Grove "Community" Church to his Crystal Cathedral but I could always go there and walk around the grounds and find God there. I spent a lot of time there reflecting on life and could always find Peace there. I did however start coming back for Christmas Eve services around the year 2000 making it a new holiday tradition. I moved up North in October 2010 which ended my yearly tradition and now I hear it will be sold to the Catholic Church. A strong faith and great people, I applaud the move. My prayer is that you will find it to be a place of Joy where God will be worshipped and all his people blessed.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 10:48 AM By Anita
I support 'St Christopher's comments. Have you noticed when the Church of all time is supported how it is attacked on this site? The New Order is very charitable to all except Traditional Catholics. How they detest us. This must mean Catholics were wrong for 2000 years. They must be happy now because there is very little difference in the NO and the protestant churches and that is the goal. Ecumenism!!! Isn't it wonderful?

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 11:10 AM By Abeca Christian
CD Thompson please forgive me, I mean no harm in my post but I am curious if you are really who you say you are because my many years of evangelizing to non-Catholic brothers and sisters, I have never once heard them rejoice at the idea of a Catholic "religion" as some call it to ever own any of their buildings. So your comments are interesting. Now if you are who you say you are, then by all means I welcome you to join Christ's church, the Catholic Church.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 11:12 AM By Dan H.
I'm dismayed to read about the Diosese of Orange, CA buying the Crystal Cathedral for $57.5 million. The Catholic Church is closing parishes all over the US due to lack of priests; many of these parishes have been in existence for decades. In our diosese, we are recruiting priests from Africa to staff parishes. The Church is contributing to the flow out of Africa of intellectual capacity that these nations sorely need. The Church is blind to the problems that surrounds it. Buying a church for $57.5 million shows that the Catholic Church is out of touch with reality.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 11:21 AM By Abeca Christian
Linda I enjoyed also reading your point of view, when I read it, I thought to myself, hey can be good as a way to spread the church but the costs of buying is very expensive, the church needs to discern correctly and be wise on such things. Discerning if the building is within Catholic structures that actually inspire reverence and holiness. I suppose with time, we can buy back our churches that we once lost and sold off to Protestant sects, but I also considered what Juergensen commented. All that money right now, we need to correct the heresies, that money can be used to better Catechizes. I don't know, I'm sure there are many suggestions we can make, there is a lot we can bring to the table, I just beg that we never forget what is most important. Which is reaching sanctifying grace.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 11:33 AM By St. Christopher
To the fans of glass cubes for worship space: It is good that the Vatican recently established a "Liturgical Art and Sacred Music Commission" to put some limits on the waste of resources exemplified by this purchase. Cardinal Llovera called the work of this Commission "very urgent". Rather than repeat it, read the article in La Stampa (Nov. 21). To "David L", Christ never read the Bible or Cathecism, either, yet both enshrine His words of salvation. But the appointed leaders of the Church did establish rules and traditions that will be obsered. To "MARKRITE", the present movement toward a Catholic reformation will take decades and even centuries to complete. It is not an accomodationist effort, but one of purification and re-devotion (such as is seen, in a small way, with the revised Missal). The Crystal Cathedral purchase is a cynical, manipulative, and arrogant flaunting of Church treasure to smooth the vanity of one man (who has done all he could, by the way, to ignore so much of what the Holy Father has clearly requested, and directed, including ignoring the Motu Proprio, Summorum Pontificum). The good people of O.C. should simply never contribute to the Crystal Cathedral, or attend any of its services (which likely to be as non-Catholic as possible, in any event).

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 12:01 PM By Matthew
I am so thankful that God delivered the Crystal Cathedral Campus to the Diocese of Orange. Thank you Lord! My biggest concern now is that the coming remodel might be a disaster. I think it would be most prudent if Bp. Tod Brown left the design and execution of the remodeling to his coming successor. Bp, Brown did his part in securing a wonderful campus at a bargain price. He should allow his replacement (who will have to live with the changes) the opportunity to lead the remodeling.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 12:08 PM By Matthew
Regarding kneelers: Most experts suggest that the change from stadium seating (which I prefer) to pew seating will actually cost 20% of the capacity -- not a good thing. That said there is no way there is room on the main floor to install kneelers (I personally checked) with the current seating arrangement. But that part of the Crystal Cathedral is carpeted anyway so it would be easy (albeit tight) to kneel. Kneeling in the transepts and the loge might prove to be bigger challenges.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 12:11 PM By Cyril
Anyone who claims the Crystal Cathedral screams "Protestant" is simply ignorant and possibly hateful.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 12:15 PM By Charles Culbreth
St. Christopher (or anyone interested...) Out of curiosity, no hidden agenda whatsoever, what are your opinions of the Cathedral of La Sagrada Familia in Barcelona, Spain, Gaudi, architect?

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 12:15 PM By Sara
"...Phrases such as worship space, faith community, and presider have no place in true Catholic vocabulary..." ---- Poppycock.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 12:23 PM By Clinton
@ CD Thompson: I would invite you to learn more about the Catholic Church. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass has been the central aspect of Christianity since the beginning. Many of the beliefs that are espoused in churches that are referred to as Christian would have been foreign to the earliest Christians, as they looked to the Chair of Peter (ie the Catholic Church) for guidance in all matters pertaining to the Faith. May Our Lord be with you and guide you.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 12:53 PM By JLS
CD Thompson, now that you know the power and authority of Baptism, you might want to look into further resources such as the Holy Eucharist ... I learned about this from the Bible ... in fact, from the King James Bible.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:05 PM By BUD
I AM VERY WARY ABOUT THE "GLASS SHOWCASE" BECAUSE IT just reminds me too much of a few other bishops over the past building monuments to themselves. Of course it is a bargain and that is what must count? Ha Ha! Bishops simply do not represent or provide real example to their flocks by their inactions and failure to explain their actions to "keep the peace." The behavior of the Bishop of Albany New York soured me and has caused much resentment especially when considering the real worthwhile bishops we do have that truly fight the battle! Just how rich are these dioceses including the liability insurance that has paid to pay off all of those claims?

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:37 PM By Deacon Vince
CD Thompson provides some very appropriate comments. Our family will miss the pagentry of the Easter and Christmas presentations there. I hope the diocese will place traditional representations of Our Lady and St. Joseph in a place of light and beauty.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:37 PM By mary Mahugu
Someone had to buy the cathedral.it could have been turned into a mosque or temple. Thank God it remained a christian place of worship.Will miss reading the hour of power sermons.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:47 PM By A Lady
I've been reading the comments pro and con regarding the purchase of the Crystal Cathedral. While there have been some wonderfully cogent arguments for each side, there has also been an unacceptable number of vitriolic comments. The history of Christ's church is one of change throughout the centuries. Gothic cathedrals, as was previously pointed out, did not exist in Christ's time. They were the style of that period of time. I imagine there were critics of that style during the time of their construction. What needs to be pointed out regarding the Crystal Cathedral purchase is that approval was required to be obtained from the Vatican. The approval was obtained and the Nihil Obstat was received by the bishop. Regarding the renovations needed, just because Msgr Holquin did not specifically mention kneelers, be assured they will be present as will all other furnishings required in a Catholic house of worship. No, the Crystal Cathedral does not have stained glass windows. But, its geographic location will make attendance easier for those who rely on public transportation. Let us rejoice that far less money will be spent on this endeavor and that more money will be able to be raised to support the Catholic schools, charities, etc. Let us give praises that our liturgy is now an accurate translation of the Latin. Tridentine masses are available all through the diocese as are masses in many languages - including English. Let us give thanks to God that we are able to worship and offer Him praises in freedom. Too many others around the world would swap places with us in an instant.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 2:07 PM By Allan Wafkowski
They just have no sense in Lala Land (of course I use the phrase with the utmost respect). Don't they have a big enough eyesore in LA???

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 2:28 PM By Catherine
Juergensen, There are still Catholics schools in this diocese where a teacher will be either reprimanded, disciplined and possibly terminated for teaching the CCC. No amount of inexpensive tuition is worth the price of selling out the Catholic faith. I do agree with you that the money could have been better used. How about money to build new convents and invite and house Mother Mary Assumpta Long o.p. and sisters to live in them and to teach the Catholic faith in our Catholic schools. It seems the education of Catholic children is not an extreme priority. Who do these purchasers of large buildings believe will pass down the authentic Catholic faith as taught in the CCC second edition? As I said earlier, not all Catholic schools in this diocese allow their teachers to teach exactly what the CCC teaches.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 3:02 PM By Bob One
I find it interesting that CD Thompson, a non-Catholic, had to tell us what we should have all been thinking in the first place - that we find joy in the new cathedral. We should be joyous that the diocese could find a cathedral for @ $50MM less that what it would cost to build from scratch. The average high school today costs nearly $200MM. This is not a "fight" between modernist and traditionalist. There are just some people who are not able to reconcile the fact that not all Catholics think the way they do - on both sides of the argument. After December 31st, the glass church will be a Catholic church, not a Protestant church. It will be altered to fit our way of worshiping, with the altar being the central piece of "furniture" and the cathedra the symbol of the Bishop's office. Mass will be said in that building. Does it matter if there are kneelers or not, as long as people are worshiping and praising God? Does it matter if the glass is stained? Does it matter - you name it? It will be a place where we go to worship. It is a place where we will participate in the liturgy of the Word, the liturgy of the Eucharist, the liturgy of gathering and going out. We will, if we are lucky, hear and sing good music (I'm not picking a fight with that statement). It will be a place where all are welcome to come as they are. It is a place where sinners will gather to ask the Lord to save them. It will be a place where they can start to build a personal relationship with the Risen Lord. Is that so bad? I think we should rejoice wth the people of the Diocese. Joy to the world the Lord has come.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 4:03 PM By Boinnie deRutte
This is an awesome ediface and I think it truely is a miracle that it "somehow" became the property ot our beloved Roman Catholic Church. It can be as holy as we pray for it to be. No one can deny that it is a magnicicent structure,and with God,s help it can be all that He wants it to be. Let.s all join in prayer that it will be a powerful center of prayer and holiness that will draw pilgrims from all over.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 4:24 PM By k
I hope those who used to attend services at the Crystal Cathedral will attend the Masses there. Maybe they will be moved by Truth.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 4:40 PM By Abeca Christian
Cyril just because someone does not like modern buildings and consider them ugly or reminds them of protestant (there is a history to back up their dislike), does not make "hateful". Don't you think that your post to them is actually "hateful". Your criticism towards those whom prefer Holier and traditional churches was exactly what you accused them of.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 4:58 PM By Cyril
Abeca Christian: If someone wants to qualify their postings with something like "I personally feel" then that's fine -- they'll simply look ignorant when they make comments like all modern/postmodern architecture is "ugly" or looks "Protestant." However when they fling invectives without any qualification then they are clearly showing not only ignorance but also hate and that's not allowed for Christians.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 5:02 PM By JLS
Yep, Catholicism is simply one more among many ways to worship ... evidently despite what Jesus clearly says in the Gospel.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 5:02 PM By Matthew
Though I am not especially proud to admit it, I actually enjoy the anger that the purchase of the Crystal Cathedral campus is causing for some "rad-trads." It actually makes me feel good to hear their whining. Their condemnation is like a stamp of approval. The purchase of the Crystal Cathedral for $57.5M is a remarkable, God-given bargain. Get over it already, "rad-trads."

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 5:03 PM By JLS
At least in public schools, kids know it is not teaching Catholic religion.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 5:04 PM By JLS
To put it bluntly, without vitriol the milk and honey would taste bland.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 5:59 PM By Bud
Abeca Christian, I'm from Ohio but when I visited Los Angeles for other reasons, I did visit the "Windex" Cathedral. When I sat in the 3rd or 4th row, I was impressed by one thing, the coldness. It is truly nothing but a huge theater with lots of windows with no particular meaning. I certainly did not feel the warmth or beauty of a church. Mr. Schuler must have taken in lots of money over the years; what happened to it??? I guess they will have to "etch" the stations of the cross into some of those glass expanses. Just as Allan Wafkowski wrote above, "They just have no sense in Lala Land (of course I use the phrase with the utmost respect). Don't they have a big enough eyesore in LA??? "

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 6:16 PM By Juergensen
Matthew says: "The purchase of the Crystal Cathedral for $57.5M is a remarkable, God-given bargain" - Oh, absolutely. I mean, God Himself stayed up late at night working to make sure Bishop Tod funneled $57.5 million to Protestants in lieu of using that money to send Catholics to Catholic schools. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 6:16 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Since when is "the One True Church" supposed to supply worship space for the "separated brethren"? It will be a miracle if there is any real resemblance to Catholic Church, and, Lorraine, an even greater miracle if there are kneelers. By the way, Monsignor Holquin, the Director of Liturgy, for the Diocese of Orange, is a big contributor to the most pro-abortion, pro-sodomite President this Nation has ever suffered! The Director of Liturgy before him was admitted homosexual now laicized priest, Rod Stevens! God bless, yours in Their Hearts, Kenneth M. Fisher

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 6:27 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Brown closed down the oldest Catholic School in the Diocese, St. Boniface, for alleged lack of funds, what a farce! He will be happy with the Crystal Cathedral because he is an ecumaniac. God help us and have mercy on us. God bless, yours in Their Hearts, Kenneth M. Fisher

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 6:56 PM By JLS
I hate to tell you Cyril, but invectives are part of language, and it is incumbent on the hearer to wrack his brain to comprehend. I just moments ago engaged in an invective dual with a drunk driver, eventually conveying the critical message to him that he needs to watch his driving so he does not incur steeper insurance rates. Invective, therefore is a time honored appelation (Maguire, how is appleashun to be correcly spelt? Could you look it up in your library, pleez? Thanx.) on the language we use.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 6:57 PM By Linda Maria
This is a silly "gimmick," NOT a good Protestant church, nor most certainly, a Catholic Cathedral!! The liturgist for Bishop Brown forgot to mention the need for kneelers, Stations of the Cross, a CATHOLIC baptismal font, a Sacristy, and of course, as he said-- a Catholic altar (of course, the goofy, Protestant Novus Ordo Missae "table altar!!") and "cathedra," or bishop's chair-- and Tabernacle. But this building, the Crystal Cathedral-- is a silly "gimmick," not a place of Protestant worship-- and certainly, NOT a Catholic Cathedral!! Rome needs to protect our sacred theology and sacred church design-- before it is all abolished and destroyed forever, by crazy Church leaders, like Bishop Brown, and many others!! But I do not think Rome cares at all-- about the TRUE Roman Catholic Faith!! The on-going destruction of Catholic theology, morality, worship, and "identity," begins in Rome, at the Vatican!! A TRAGEDY!!

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 6:58 PM By JLS
Matthew, it ain't whining, it is exercising the brain so that we function better. You've joined in, so may you also benefit from the longer and healthier life to be gained by the strained neural synapses ... no pain, no gain, right? You have to admit that spicing up the old couch potato with some salsa does wonders ... wouldn't you?

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 11:05 PM By Abeca Christian
Cyril I really want to understand your point of view. I appreciate your kind dialogue with me. Lets see, when I studied history, I learned about the new Jesus movement, that many didn't want to be like "those Catholics", so they made their buildings totally the opposite from what a real Cathedral would really look like. So it was the protestants ability to hate what they considered Catholic, or perhaps their prejudges, where they wanted to change things around and I believe this is what people here trying to convey. Cyril I can't blame you if you don't understand where they are coming from, you probably don't know any better, I say this with the utmost respect. I recall when I was exposed to the reality of what many protestants actually thought in regards to Catholics, I realized that it was heresy that actually lead them towards their thinking. I don't want to be rude, but the building is ugly. I have been to too many truly beautiful and reverent Cathedrals and comparing this building, well I can't honestly say that it inspires me. It has nothing Catholic about it.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 11:18 PM By Abeca Christian
Bud I agree. I don't see any issue with lay faithful speaking their distaste of such a building, and I find interesting even the comments of those who are for this building. There are different points of views, I for one am on the side of those who hold concerns about this building. I too think it is ugly, I only want the best for my Lord, our church has always build beautiful churches to honor our Lord, but lately in my time, churches are changing. I'm not going to name call anyone who is for or against it. The church bought it, plain as simple, one could question why? But the fact of the matter, no matter how we feel about it, it is a done deal. I just hope that the church does it's job that Christ has ordained His church to do. I hope this does not represent an assumption that the church is watering down the faith simply because it purchased this glass building, but I suspect that it may represent something of that nature. Only time will tell, lets pray about it. I beg this diocese to maintain true Catholicism, lead souls to heaven and stop the nonsense.

Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 11:54 PM By Maryanne Leonard
My friends, there is at least one Catholic church designed as a Catholic Church in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles that does not have kneelers . . . by design. I admit I was shocked at first, but I will also tell you that Catholicism reigns there, just as it did in the hundreds of years before kneelers were invented. As the nation's population ages, have you noticed the increasing percentage of people who cannot kneel or genuflect any more? Yet they pray, worship and live out their Catholic faith in a most sincere and genuine manner. Kneelers are wonderful, though, I agree. If they won't fit, they won't fit. Bummer, but that saves funds for other significant changes to help make this church feel more recognizably Catholic. But as faithful Catholics, we can worship God anywhere and any time. We don't need magnificent cathedrals. People can and do worship God in prayer quite sincerely while in bed or even lying on God's good earth while recuperating or before rising, sleeping, or dying. The building is just a wonderfully convenient place to gather, to worship, conduct church business, and to operate a Catholic school. Many Catholics worship fruitfully in churches that would not win a beauty contest, but I admit, the word "cathedral" does conjure up magnificent edifices. This purchase was an eminently responsible purchase, even though most of us do not like its appearance. Let's get over ourselves and adjust to reality and do what we can to help it look and feel more Catholic and function satisfactorily in the eyes of God.

Posted Thursday, December 01, 2011 4:11 AM By Juergensen
Closing Catholic schools for lack of funds + Funneling $57.5 million to Protestants = Amchurch at its finest

Posted Thursday, December 01, 2011 5:53 AM By Bob ONe
The Vatican has just given its approval (Nil Obstat) for the purchase of the cathedral.

Posted Thursday, December 01, 2011 6:09 AM By JLS
Has the diocese shut down all non- income producing operations yet?

Posted Thursday, December 01, 2011 6:11 AM By JLS
I do not like kneelers because they get in the way of kneeling.

Posted Thursday, December 01, 2011 6:19 AM By Juergensen
$57.5 million - How many babies would have been saved from being dismembered in the womb if even a fraction of this staggering sum had been applied to financially support their mothers instead of being doled out to Protestants? Will this question be asked at the Final Judgment?

Posted Thursday, December 01, 2011 6:34 AM By ANNE
Maryann Leonard, if you live in the LA Diocese write a letter to your Parish Priest with a copy to Abp Gomez. Kneeling is absolutely REQUIRED during certain parts of the Mass (unless health will not permit). People without kneelers will simply have to kneel on the floor or get kneelers. See the new GIRM on the USCCB web site. Also of interest to many is Bishop Foy's (of Covington KY Diocese) DECREE regarding abuses of lack of kneeling, holding hands and raising hands by laity during the Our Father, and more. I just sent a copy of Decree to my Bishop for consideration. And I added the abuse of the Peace sign when people extend this to those not next (near) to them.

Posted Thursday, December 01, 2011 8:23 AM By OC Catholic
St Christopher is right on. Bishop Brown, please just go away, far far away. Hopefully, the next bishop will sell it to Chapman College and use the profit for the good of the church.

Posted Thursday, December 01, 2011 11:23 AM By Tota Tua
I do know Mr. Busch - if he thinks this is incredible for the faithful - that is good enough for me. His firm has Mass EVERY day in the firm. if you have not already please read kathyshiffer (dot) com and her piece on the Cathedral purchase.

Posted Thursday, December 01, 2011 11:38 AM By Tota Tua
I do know Mr. Busch - if he thinks this is incredible for the faithful - that is good enough for me. His firm has Mass EVERY day in the firm. if you have not already please read kathyshiffer (dot) com and her piece on the Cathedral purchase.

Posted Thursday, December 01, 2011 1:10 PM By Dave N.
The diocese will now be able to sell their Marywood property as well as the original proposed site for the cathedral in South Coast Metro--thus turning a profit on the entire transaction.

Posted Thursday, December 01, 2011 1:39 PM By Catherine
Bob one, Are you the same Bob who holds the ACLU in such honorable esteem? Not quite so fast! There are those within the Church who expect the faithful to trust their words that the Vatican has approved and responded in a couple of weeks to their Protestant Church buying requests when the Vatican has not responded to Most Holy Redeemer's corrupt state for at least ten years and for other matters over 40 years? Something is very fishy in Orange County, California. There are other newspaper articles on the internet that say the Vatican does not approve this kind of structure. We were also once told that the Vatican had approved altar girls, and we were told this before the Vatican knew that our bishops had started to use them without being given permission. If a Protestant Church can be purchased for $57.5 million so can a newspaper article. So can anything. See article by Ken Skuba,'The Cost of Ecclesial Equality, Altar Boys: The Problem or the Solution?' In one U.S. Diocese, however, the noble tradition (of altar boys) continues. In Lincoln, Nebraska, altar girls are not permitted. They never were period. With a population of only 95,000 Catholics, small by comparison to many other Dioceses, Lincoln has 40 seminarians studying for the priesthood as of March, 2011, and ordains 3 to 4 priests per year. That's one seminarian for every 2,375 Catholics. By comparison, the Diocese of Allentown, Pennsylvania, with some 275,000 Catholics, has only 15 seminarians, one for every 18,000. The Diocese of Syracuse, New York, which has about three and a half times the population of Lincoln, has 14 seminarians, and ordained only one priest each year for the past five years. Do not criticize this post regarding altar boys until you have read Ken Skuba's article and educate yourself on what the Vatican is currently saying about preserving the longstanding tradition of male altar servers. "Hold fast to your traditions" and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, second edition.

Posted Thursday, December 01, 2011 3:52 PM By JLS
The early Church could have made a mint off of selling the Cross, the nails, the spear, and so forth ... Strangely none of the apostles evidently thought of such a deal. Did St Paul sell that white horse he fell of off? Wow, what a price it could have fetched.

Posted Thursday, December 01, 2011 10:14 PM By JLS
Jesus tells a parable about a successful farmer who ponders what to do with his surplus harvest. He decides to store it despite advice to distribute it to the community. That night he dies because the Lord disapproved of his selfish decision.

Posted Friday, December 02, 2011 2:26 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Although, I admire what Tim Busch has done with his chapel at his Law Firm, I too know him, and I also know he is very close with Bishop Brown. The position of the Tabernacle in his chapel is on the side as Brown wanted it! God bless, yours in Their Hearts, Kenneth M. Fisher

Posted Friday, December 02, 2011 3:41 PM By Catherine
Kenneth Fisher, God Bless you for your wise words.

Posted Saturday, December 03, 2011 6:29 AM By J-M
LINDA you should feel shame in your post! Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 10:34 AM By Linda Schuller was the Prosperity Protest-ant and it is no surpise that in the end his empire collapsed. His son actually started preaching from the bible and Schuller couldn't stand that. As Protest-antism continues to splinter and support all sorts of heresy, Catholics may be able to pick up other church buildings around the country that are mostly empty! Pro-testant for the Word is not a protest rather a positive affirmation of the bible. Taking pleasure in hoping to acquire "buildings" from those on hard times is not a Christian approach. Rather than taking from the poor, if you can help just help. Crystal Cathedral welcomed all but now the remains in the cemetary are to be removed if not Catholic and no Holy Communion for non-Catholics. That is the sin, not the partaking of Jesus by non-Catholics! And Pro-testant means "For the Testaments of the Bible"! Show some Love and welcome to a real Church of God unless it is part of His plan to show Catholicism openly through clear windows in all its fear and and anti-Christian ways through exclusion of Pro-testants.

Posted Saturday, December 03, 2011 7:33 AM By Bob One
Kenneth, I believe the "law" of the church allows the tabernacle to be directly behind the altar, on a side altar or in a special chapel. It is up to the pleasure of the local Bishop to approve. While most people seem to want it behind the altar, it is not wrong to be in the other two places. I also believe that they ":law" calls for only enough host to be kept in the tabernacle for taking to the sick between masses. Not sure about the last comment. Maybe you can clarify.

Posted Saturday, December 03, 2011 8:16 AM By JLS
Bob One, you can choose minimal participation in the life Christ has offered you, or you can choose more.

Posted Saturday, December 03, 2011 9:36 AM By Bob One
JLS, I have no idea what you meant by your last comment. It has nothing to do with anything I have posted. Help me understand.

Posted Saturday, December 03, 2011 10:20 AM By Catherine
Bob One, You are pointing out the real root of the problem. You admit, It is up to the *pleasure* of the local Bishop to decide where the Tabernacle should be? Very Interesting choice of words, Bob. Since when, should it be pleasurable for a Catholic bishop to hide the Source and Summit of our Catholic Faith? Since when should it be pleasurable to place Our Lord to the *side*? Shame on you Bob for contributing to the delinquency of disrespect aimed directly toward the Blessed Sacrament. Those are not very good credentials for anyone on Judgement Day. Many will be held accountable for disgracefully using their authority to use such pleasures. According to the state of the Catholic Church in the United States it has been precisely due to an abundance of *pleasure* that has the majority of Catholics living as uncatechized Catholics and thus misunderstanding what the Church actually does teach. This foolish pleasure is the main reason that the Most Blessed Sacrament has been relegated to either a broom closet or hidden in a location where the faithful have to go on a hunt to figure out which door will lead them to find Our Lord. Bob One, Your priority of pleasures are not in order. You have defended the nobleness of the ACLU with far greater allegiance than you defended the noble treatment due to Our Lord most present in the Blessed Sacrament to be positioned in the most worthy place of prominence that Our Lord so worthily deserves. Once again Bob One, those are not very good credentials. Bob One, Please cite me the Catechism teaching or the Scriptural quote that instructs us to use all of our *pleasures* to attain the Kingdom of God?

Posted Saturday, December 03, 2011 10:40 AM By JLS
It directly corresponds to your post, Bob One. The laws of the Church deal with minimal participation, and you're talking about a particular law that gives the limits for minimal participation with respect to the Tabernacle.

Posted Saturday, December 03, 2011 11:56 AM By Bob One
OK, Catherine, pleasure is perhaps the wrong word. It was meant to mean that the local Bishop can allow a parish to put the Tabernacle in either of the three approved locations. As I understand it, they cannot place it on a side altar or in a seperate chapel without his permission. There, permission may be the better word. By the way, I was answering a question or stating a fact, not an opinion or preferance. Please don't shoot the messengers.

Posted Saturday, December 03, 2011 12:39 PM By Abeca Christian
Bob one but the messenger is only shot here, so to speak, when they are walking around helping or condoning error.

Posted Monday, December 05, 2011 12:52 AM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Bob One, If my memory serves me correctly, "the placement of the Most Blessed Sacrament is to be in a place most prominent where it can be viewed from all positions in the Church". In far too many instances, Bp Brown has made the reluctant pastor place the tabernacle BEHIND A WALL! Unless you have XRay vision, you cannot see what is behind a wall! God bless, yours in Their Hearts, Kenneth M. Fisher

Posted Friday, December 23, 2011 10:41 AM By CentralOC
I'm truly appalled at how many folks here are worshipping "traditional" architecture, as though it were Biblical doctrine or something. The complaints that departing from that architecture somehow compromises Christian doctrine is a ridiculous argument, not to mention completely unfounded. Jesus never worshipped in anything remotely close to our church buildings today. As a lifelong Catholic who grew up in Central Orange County, I'm very familiar with the iconic Crystal Cathedral, and am further familiar with the positive impact their congragation has had on the local community. The Diocese purchasing the Crystal Cathedral does not, in any way, shape, or form, compromise Biblical Doctrines or Catholic tradition (oh, btw, just so we all remember, Catholic tradition is not a foundation for what constitutes Christian Doctrine). There is a great deal of logic in the Diocese purchasing the property. First, the 40 acre property is already suited as a worship space, church operations, and ministerial outreaches (it has been performing that function for half a century). Second, the property is centrally located in Orange County (unlike the current site of Christ Our Savior). Third, between the property's proximity to freeways and its ample space, it is extremely well suited to handling large Diocesan events (which neither the current Holy Family Cathedral nor Christ Our Savior property can claim). Fourth, at under $60 million, the price was nearly half of the $100 million (or more) that it would cost to build from scratch elsewhere. Fifth, the architecture of the Crystal Cathedral building itself was done by renowned architect Phillip Johnson, who helped define the 20th century minimalist movement in architecture. This is the 20th century equivalent to having Gaudi or Brunelleschi design your church (if you don't know who these people are, you really have no business knocking modern church designs). As you can see, there are numerous logical arguments favoring the Diocese's purchase of the property. There are no logical arguments against. Yes, there are emotional and subjective arguments against, but none based on logic, objectivity, or morality.

Posted Sunday, February 12, 2012 8:48 AM By JLS
OC, what are you on when you say that without knowledge of the names of some architects one has no business criticizing architecture? Evidently you have eyes to read, but not eyes to see.

Posted Sunday, February 12, 2012 8:51 AM By JLS
OC, your denial of the importance of emotion in logical reason is simply stupid, has no objectivity to it, and is morally vacant or worse ... pretty much like the minimalist architecture you're marketing.

Posted Sunday, February 12, 2012 11:37 AM By Catherine
JLS, When pro-aborts wanted to cleverly attempt to water down the value of a beating heart, they used certain words that diminished or devalued the real importance of protecting a sacred life. They referred to destroying the fetus, (latin for little one) as "the evacuation of biological contents." All we need to read and hear are Central OC's own words, "worship space," to know that this conversation is from a perspective where one is either complicit in promoting Modernism or it is an individual who has tragically been influenced by the watering down of the value of the words "sacred" place vs the Protestant words, "worship space".

Posted Sunday, February 12, 2012 1:10 PM By JLS
The problem with separating out emotion from logical reasoning when dealing with Catholicism is simply that Jesus is the Logos, and He was made flesh, and the Church is HIs mystical body. There are other religions that do not include the body of which the emotions are part. And there are religions such as Lutheranism which include the false yet ancient idea that anything material is evil. So when attempting to assess Catholic architecture by denying the goodness of the body is heresy. The glass building bought by Bp Brown reflects more smog and grog than anything Heavenly or any renewal of the earth and all that is in it. It is essentially a large glass building with no other symbolism at all. Schuller may have built it with his own hyper emotional charism in mind, but as a structure designed to reflect the temple of the Holy Spirit especially in the Holy Tabernacle of the Blessed Eucharist, it appears to have no value to the Catholic Church. Keeping in mind that the Pope says the Church will become smaller and holier, one wonders if such "minimalist" structures such as this glass one and the warehouse looking one in Los Angeles will suit the fall out as the Church downsizes to holy. After all the fallout will go somewhere, so why not give them a place with nothing to symbolize since they dream up new symbols on a weekly basis? How better to continually recreate religious symbols than to provide a bland structure? Which also represents a lot of modernist bishops whose personas are pretty much as bland as these vapid structures. The real Church has a profound personality and it generates profound symbols none of which deny those that blossomed in earlier times. Vatican 2 style architecture will draw away the shallow souls from the deeper wells of God.

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